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Sept. 23, 2021

Justice and Accountability for the Victims of Flight PS752

Justice and Accountability for the Victims of Flight PS752

This episode sounds like the plot line of a Tom Clancy novel however it is real. It is the most shocking and revealing episode to date, retired RCMP Officer Andy Brooke went through the time line of the Iranian terrorist attack that took the lives of 55 Canadians aboard flight PS752, the coverup by Iran, the failure of leadership of the Canadian Government and what actions are being taken to get justice by the families.

Andy reveals that family members of the victims of PS752 have been harassed by the Iranian Regime and he gives never revealed details about the case until now, including that the lawyer that is representing the families of the victims for the Civil suit claims to have received threatening and distressing E-mails from Government of Canada lawyers.


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Transcript
Coffee Breath Conversations:

All right, everyone. Well, welcome back to Coffee Breath Conversations. I'm your host, Russell Barton. And today I have Andy Brook on the show. And he broke is a retired RCMP officer and a member of the Coalition for criminal accountability for flight ps 752. Tonight, we'll be discussing the terrorist attack, the lack of government action, and the effect that it's had on the families. Before we start, welcome to the show, Andy. And if you could give a brief introduction, and let us know how you became involved with the coalition.

Andy Brooke:

Thank you, Russell so much. Yeah, this is incredibly important to the families. This whole thing is about the families. And the group that I'm with is called Coalition for criminal accountability for plate PSM five to just very briefly my background, I was a RCMP officer for 28 years, I served half my career in British Columbia, what we call a division. And the rest of my career I did essentially in Ontario, doing what we call, non contract work, sort of the FBI stuff, federal policing. I also spent five years on the Canada's counterterrorism team, so I did the tactical side. So that's sort of my background, in as an RCMP officer, I spent a lot of my career doing just regular uniformed patrol. I also handled international cases. When I was back in Ontario. The biggest case I did, I guess, was what was called the Iraqi helicopter case. And that may or may not come in in the context of this in terms of flight, ps 752, essentially, but the day or so after it happened. And I was, as I was watching, as all Canadians were the news and trying to make heads or tails. And there was a lot, of course, reports about it was a shot down accidentally wasn't an Iranian missile. But from that point forward, I've noticed things. And I guess, because of my background, with the RCMP, and in particular, because of my own background, with the RCMP and I became essentially very critical of the way the government of Canada was approaching this. And now to fast forward. About a few months ago, it wasn't that long, it was longer than two, maybe three family members reached out to me. And in the process of reaching out, we ended up forming a coalition of Canadians who like myself, each have an expertise and bring our own experience and that was how this coalition was formed. The most important thing that is actually happened at the moment is on the 23rd of August, two named complainants on you know, with advisory from us, the coalition filed formal public complaints against the RCMP Commissioner, Brenda lucky for her refusal to open a Canadian criminal investigation into the downing of flight PSM five two.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Before we kind of get started into that, would you be able to give just a brief outline of kind of the timeline of events, and kind of key things along the way that you feel should be mentioned when we're just when we're having this discussion?

Unknown:

Yeah, well, the flight itself was shot down on the eighth of January 2020. It was a Ukrainian registered airliner, that Ukraine International Airlines. It had 176 people on board nine of which recruit of the remaining 167 passengers. There were 55 Canadian citizens, there were 30 permanent residents. And I believe 53 people who were connected in some other way traveling to Canada. So approximately 100. And what's the figure? I would have 38 or so don't quote me on that had a connection to Canada out of the 176. your viewers, your viewers will hear me a number of times this evening, talk about Canadian citizens. And just explain up front in case that sounds insensitive. Much of what we're going to be talking about has to do with our authorities take action and our authority comes from the well one of the sources is the Criminal Code. And the Criminal Code only recognizes Canadian citizens there is no recognition for permanent residents, at least in terms of our authorities for investigations outside of Canada. So the other thing that your viewers should know. That is important though there was an Ontario court case, Ontario Superior Court, it's a civil case and on May 8, 20th 2021 so very recently, Justice Edward bello Baba issued his judgment and the plaintiffs for her family members. And there were multiple family members. And the judge ruled. And he found that the missile attacks, there was two missiles fired 30 seconds apart between the two missiles that brought down flight, ps 752. That those attacks were, quote, his words intentional, and an act of terrorism. So when your viewers hear me use the words intentional, and an act of terror, that is not me, that is the Justice Bella Bob his own words, that's his finding. And we'll go more into his finding puppy a little bit later. The next important thing for those watching this program to to be aware of is that there was a forensic report is coming to be called the forensic report, the awasthi report. And it was released in on June 24 2021. So about a month after the judgment came up. The report itself makes no mention of the judgment whatsoever. And that friends report coalition views as essentially unacceptable, wholly unacceptable, and it's woefully inadequate. We don't view it as a real investigation. We'll go into that more. The next thing that's an important day, so you have May, which is judgment, in a civil court on a balance of probabilities. In June, you have the forensic report to release. But the important thing or that forensic report, the one takeaway from that forensic report, is the statement that the forensic team found no evidence that the shooting down was premeditated. They're diametrically opposite to what the judge found. The next important date is July 7.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Andy, could I just Can I say one thing? So Iran's military shoots down his civilian airliner? How can they say it's accidental, especially when the missiles were to were 30 seconds apart? To say it's an accident, when a trained military in identifies a potential target? Should there not be some type of target recognition? Or don't they have to confirm what the target is before they go firing at it? They can't just start firing at random aircraft.

Unknown:

No, and I. So first of all, to be very clear, I'm not an expert on surface to air missiles. And I can comment in terms of the forensic report spent a fair amount of time on that subject that you're asking. Essentially, though, to let your viewers know, the forensic report is nothing more than a collection of open source data. It's anything anybody could get on their own. Plus, it included the AIB, which was the aircraft Accident Investigation Board report by Iran, it was their fifth version. and Iran essentially puts all the blame, although it's for this incident on the operator, and essentially a breakdown, a massive breakdown in C to command and control. So everything you said, is absolutely correct. The report fills up a lot of its eight, our Canadian report, forensic report, which the government leans on, as if it's as if it's the Bible is made up with something you could probably find in Jane's weekly defense, we could, quite frankly,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

now with the with the report, you know, they talk about, again, a breakdown of command and control. So do they ever mention any specifics about the breakdown of command and control? Or is it just left? vague?

Unknown:

It's a good point. When you read the Canadian friends report reporting on Iran's report, they go through it, I pick out the weaknesses and the shortcomings, what the government of Canada calls the information gaps. And it's, as you read through the forensic report, it dawned on me about halfway through somewhere around there, that it was almost like a paint by numbers. Canada, at the same time, was asking questions of Iran, saying you haven't answered this. And at the same time, you get the impression when you read the report. And that's why I call it paint by numbers. They give them the answer. From page 48 of the report. It reads, I'll just take one sentence, this raises questions about the responsibility and proficiency of the SAM unit crew, in addition to the operator. So, you know, it sounds reasonable. But when you think about it, what they just handed to Iran, you would never do that in a report like this, because you've basically given instruction to Iran, how to answer that they can claim that the crew was proficient they didn't have all this training, you know you're pointing on another aspect of this civilian airliners I'm reading this quote civilian airliners like flight PSM five to employ the ICAO standard l band interrogations, whereas Russian if radars are known to interrogate an S band, so what they're trying to say there is between the transponders that Iran wasn't able to identify this aircraft as a civilian aircraft. Another thing that Iran has thrown into the mix is this what they call the 105 degree misalignment, the missile unit, which is going to be important, I think, a little bit, but the the unit the battery was moved into place. During the period of time when the flight was delayed. So flight, PSM five, two was delayed 57 minutes from its intent, it scheduled time to take off and it's actual time to take off. And one thing that's going to come up in this and but I'll throw it out there now to make sure we do cover this is that know the use of the word human shields. The forensic report said they found no evidence of human shields yet the airspace was left open, that's unknown. That's a known fact. And I think, you know, anybody who has reasonable is going to realize why Iran left that airspace open. Because it did, it would function as a human shield. But here's the thing with the human shield. It's a it's a very slippery kind of thing to enter into a discussion. And I'll point that out to your viewers. What I want to point out is that there was 22 arrivals, and nine departures after midnight, before this flight that went through that airspace safely. Only one was shot down. And only one was delayed, like PSM five, two,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

given that the flight was shot down, it's a civilian airliner to do civilian airliners not, I'm not an expert. But did they not have some type of markings or something like that that identifies them as civilian compared to military like if they were on a targeting system or, or even if they were trying to be ideal, because I'm figuring if it took off from Iran's airport, it's in Iran's airspace, there has to be some type of tracking to note that it's there.

Unknown:

But luckily, it was shot down, I think within three minutes or so taking off, was not far away from Khamenei International Airport, by K. It's not so much markings as the transponder. And again, I don't want to out, I'll be very clear, I'll comment with authority on things I can. And I'll also be very clear when I'm saying something that is not really in my authority. So when you get to talk about transponders, that's not in my degree of expertise. But suffice it to say that one of the things the Iranians are claiming is that they couldn't identify the aircraft. But they're trapped the transponders, we're not recognizing it. And the other thing too, again, is that 105 degree misalignment, what that means is that Iran is claiming that it's it's operators, missile operators, the battery thought the flight was coming from the southwest Iraq, as opposed to 105 degrees from the airport, the SE. it's laughable. But that's what they tried to do. They throw up a lot of this sort of chatter, just to confuse.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Now, you had mentioned earlier that the Canadian report seemed to compliment the Iran report, that they It was like a paint by numbers. Is there not kind of provisions for leading on? Isn't there provisions against leading people on and I know, in like a court case, it would be like leading the witness to an answer would be considered something that would be obstruction, or might be called out by one of the attorneys. Is there any repercussions for doing the same in this context?

Unknown:

No. Other event? It's not an investigation. I mean, as I know, investigations, it's not how I would have conducted one, and I certainly wouldn't have said some of the things I do in there. And much of the stuff they say is filler, quite frankly, as filler. It's, it's essentially a glorified scrapbook of clippings. You know, you could go through all the open source data tweets, there was a tweet by a former president of Iran, he made a statement, you know, that's quoted in there. You know, news reports. It's all open source material, it's not. Now granted, this is the unclassified. So we don't know what was in the classified the nonpublic version. But having said that, the coalition, as we've been doing are the efforts that we've been doing to help the families, the families have spoken with us. And some of the things they have spoken to us about, are commented on in a glancing way in the report. The report dismisses out of hand very, I think it's only like one sentence might be two sentences. Where the delay there were reports and I'm not confirming or denying this to say it, but I'm saying it because the forensic report, which would have gone through multiple edits, so they left this in, they chose to, and they talked about or addressed and dismiss the fact that passengers were being removed from the flight. So what the families were communicating was that some passengers are being removed during the boarding process from this flight. And there was other things we've become aware of. And this is one thing I think, is really important for me to say right now. I mean, I'm retired, I don't have superpowers anymore. I don't carry a badge anymore. I don't have the same access as I once did. But I still know when I'm hearing things, I can still listen with investigators ears, and I can still see things if you will, there has been no investigation here. You know, this forensic report is not an investigation. The whole purpose for the Coalition for criminal accountability for flight PSM five, two, is to demand and I'm being very specific that we're not asking, we're not requesting we're demanding. And I'll make that clear in a few minutes why we use that word. Criminal account, they were demanding a Canadian criminal investigation. That's the only way we're going to find out some of the answers. Well, we'll likely never know all the answers. But an investigation of this type can be expected to be long and protracted. It's going to be complex, it's going to be difficult. But nursing and P have handled complex and difficult investigations before. So those arguments don't carry any water with me or with anybody that that's as a reason for not doing it. But when we talk about the commissioners letter, I'll cover that.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Well, let's get back to the timeline. So you had mentioned that, that we talked a bit about the incident. We talked a bit about kind of a little bit of follow up afterwards. So what happened after the incident?

Unknown:

After after January 8? Yes. Well, it was no one. I think within a few days that arann admitted, of course, initially there was the denial on Iran's part, but then they made the admission that it was their missiles. But in the immediate hours after it if that's what you mean. I can't tell you exactly was within six hours I believe might have been three hours. They were bulldoze in the crash site, if that's what you're getting. They so they took the scene, a crime scene, and they bulldoze. And just just to go back to fuck that I didn't finish. I want people to know, I will not comment on things that I can't authenticate. We've heard things, information has been brought to our attention. We're just not in a position. If we can't authenticate it, some of it is pretty powerful stuff, if in fact it is true. And if it is, in fact, true, then the situation is even worse than it appears. But essentially, if any of it is true. It goes toward the premeditation. This was intentionally shot down. And again, we have a judge said that as well.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

So after the flight was shot down, a few days later, Iran finally admits that it was their fault. But of course, as you said, they've already started to cover up the crime scene. Can you comment kind of on a timeline, how Canada responded to the incident

Unknown:

in Ralph Goodale his report which came out in December 2020. He goes through very detailed, I would even tried to replicate it, it's 40 or 50 pages explaining what Canada did to help address families as the world tried to come to grips with what had happened. I found I found it kind of difficult to read Ralph Goodale support because it's more of a an advertisement for the safer skies initiative, which has got to do with Air Transport Safety, making sure it Incidentally, this never happens, again, that it was it was a number of factors that came together for horrifically that resulted in this were the VA pilots weren't even aware of the risk as they took off. But then again, as I commented, there was was a 22 arrivals and I think nine departures. And this was the only plane that was significantly delayed, or a couple of minor delays on others. And, you know, other things that just don't make sense, like the missile battery being moved at the same time of the plane was delayed. And there again, other things which I won't go into that but brought to our attention, because I'll be quite frank here. The family members that have spoken to us, some of them spoke to their loved ones prior to takeoff on cell phones. So we've heard according to the family members, what has was communicated. Some of it is pretty powerful stuff. There were first hand observations, except

Coffee Breath Conversations:

now you had mentioned that some people were removed from the flight before it even took off. So

Unknown:

I didn't say that I said, there was information out there and I said, okay for the friends report. dismisses a vote of hand. Ralph Goodale in his report does bring it up one of his questions right. And I can't member exactly where in the report, but he actually brings up looking at the passenger manifests to see, you know, to compare the passenger manifest with those names that weren't actually lost,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

as your coalition been able to talk to any of the people that didn't make it onto the flight that day.

Unknown:

No, no, we've, our conversations at the coalition level have been limited to the families themselves. I've spoken personally with a number of family members, just to bring up the public complaint against the commissioner. I don't know if you want to address that now or a little bit later. Let's, let's address it now. Okay. So the public complaint is that's an RCMP terminology. It's it's an internal investigation. So to family members who have their names are public. They didn't decide to use any anonymous provisions, who lost family members who weren't Canadian citizens. And you'll recall Earlier I spoke about how the Criminal Code, the authorities require that the people be Canadian citizens. So each of these complainants actually have family members who are Canadian citizens. One last a 17 year old son, he was a single dad, that was his only his only family, and the other one lost his wife and 11 year old son, and he's lost his entire family. In the complaint, they asked specifically for two things, one, that the Canadian criminal investigation be opened, and two that there be a what we call a code of conduct investigation. Pursuant to the RCMP act, a code of conduct investigation is RCMP terminology for an internal investigation. They're very serious. They're always conducted. From my experience. They're always conducted in a very detailed way. They are very thorough, leave no stone unturned. So they have asked and in the writing of the complaint, it was made very clear that not only the decision of the RCMP Commissioner was to be examined, but all the circumstances surrounding that decision, because we allege in there that there was influence exerted on the RCMP Commissioner to not open a criminal investigation. The complaint there, the contraventions, one of the contraventions that we allege is that in in the RCMP act, one of the duties that are all RCMP officers have including the RCMP Commissioner, is to investigate all offenses against the laws of Canada. It's one very short snippet. But in the responsibilities I'll read to you the first three, because there are contraventions that we'll edge across all three of these. And section 37 of the RCMP Act. The first one is to respect the rights of all persons. So we're dealing here with victims and family members. We have alleged that that has not been done that be to maintain the integrity of the law, law enforcement and the administration of justice. The Criminal Code of Canada has offenses which are so serious, particular offenses that they allow for the investigation outside of Canada. One of them is terrorism. And justice bello barbas civil decision in the Ontario Superior Court dealt as I recall, pretty much exclusively with terrorism, terrorist activity. He doesn't go into other criminal code offenses, he makes his judgment based on that. And the interesting thing is I'll just throw this out there for people that may know a little bit more than some others. You know, you can disagree with a judge you can people may say well, Justice Hello Baba, another judge may have ruled entirely differently in terms of terrorism. And I agree, it's entirely possible because terrorism has some specific aspects to it. But justice bello Baba interpreted in his own interpretation as being not a problem here. It didn't it didn't negate the fact that it was terrorism another judge could have found differently, but as an investigator, there are other offenses that are as serious as terrorism. And the the one is explode is detonate, excuse me, an explosive or other lethal device, literally a surface to air missile that carries with it life imprisonment. And it also allows for this extraterritoriality this prosecution outside Canada. And I think what's important is just before I say another word on that the code uses and I'll explain to people what that means. So here this happened in Iran Recently, I don't know if who in your audience may have seen this. But recently, the Prime Minister of Canada, at a campaign stop in Toronto encountered a family member. And the father asked him, Why is there no Canadian criminal investigation? And the Prime Minister answered, quote, because a crime happened in Iran. Well, that is not accurate. And to be a little harsher, it's missing. And there's only two possible explanations for why the Prime Minister may choose to say that as the reason why there is no Canadian criminal investigation, either a prime minister unaware of a fundamental provision of Canadian law, that the Criminal Code allows for certain offenses, terrorism being one to be investigated, even though it occurs outside Canada. For be he's misleading the family member? Well, let's go back to a that benefit of the doubt he doesn't know what he's talking about. He just throws us out as a quick answer. But that strains credibility, because given the fact that he has would have been, and there's no doubt that with the Department of Justice lawyers advising them, there's no lawyer in that department, that's going to tell them we don't have the authority. So there's a political override of some type that has occurred here. We don't know exactly. But something has happened here, which leaves us with only B that he's misleading this family member. As a footnote, I know that family member, I spoken to him since and that's another thing. But there's another thing that I want to throw I've never mentioned this anywhere else in any other interview, is that we've talked about the bulldozing of the crime scene, you may hear a politician say who doesn't know what he's talking about? Well, they bulldoze the crime scene, there's nothing we can do. Nothing could be further from the truth. So call it a murder scene, because that's what this is 55 Canadian citizens as a mass murder. In a case like this, what I would do as an investigator is I would use Canada's conspiracy laws. And I would investigate this as a conspiracy to commit murder. The only difference being crime scene in that case is not a fatal or a hindrance to the investigation, conspiracy and criminal laws, actually, although it sounds very sophisticated, and it's essentially very simple. It's an agreement between two or more people to do a criminal act, somebody in the Iranian regime agreed and made the decision to shoot down an airliner, a civilian airliner, this particular airline, in our Canadian law, you basically need after that is an act of the furtherance to have your offense complete, of course, the issuing of the order, nothing happens in that regime, without the order being issued. So that's how I would approach with conspiracy to commit murder. And that also allows for it to be investigated outside. So I'm just going to read to you one subsection here. And this is repeated across for all these types of offenses. And I'll just take the one they use for terrorist activity committed outside Canada, standard three dot 75. And the interpretation section of the code it opens with, and I won't read the whole thing, it's too wordy, but the opening few words are notwithstanding standing anything in this Act, or any other act. So literally, this act being the Criminal Code, or any other act, if an act or omission is committed outside Canada, in this case, the shooting down of this aircraft that had occurred in Canada would have been deemed a terrorist offence, then that act which occurred outside Canada, is deemed to have occurred in Canada. That's the setup. Now, we don't have the aircraft registered in Canada, we don't have that aspect to get us the authority. But there's a number of conditions attached to that the one that we meet, the important one is a The act or omission is committed against a Canadian citizen. And as I've stressed so far, we have 55 Canadian citizens if there was one would have been sufficient.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

One thing that is that strikes me as very concerning. We are a g7 country. We are expected to take a leadership role in the world stage. And we're expected to kind of have a higher level of, I guess, authority in the world stage and that if something were to occur like this, we should be taking it very seriously. And yet, somehow, there seems to from what I've heard so far, there's a there's a report that seems to have some form of leading on it, there's no criminal investigation. And from what I understand, we never even got to see the Black Box contents. The site was bulldozed the from what I understand the Iranian regime also attempted to intimidate the family members that attempted to do their old looking into This whole thing really, really seems like utter incompetence and failure that stems from the top. And and frankly, it seems almost criminal and it's lack of investigation, it's lack of I kind of figure in this, in this context, if there was a single American on that aircraft, given the given the government that the Americans had at the time that it died on, on that flight, I don't think we would be seeing the same type of I don't want to use the word cover up, but just lack of lack of investigation or lack of caring, almost.

Unknown:

There's a lot of comment on there. Going backwards, you said that there was one American citizen on your right. People would know, information we have heard that's not authenticated, is that the Iranians were making those kinds of inquiries. They want to know if there were any Americans on that flight before it took off. I won't go any further into that comment. But these are things that again, need to be investigated. I mean, that goes toward premeditation. So my comment now is my opinion is not I'm not going to go anymore and and information we've heard. But if in fact, there was a triage and pray in place for these people boarding if they if there was an effort being made to make sure there was no Americans. And that raises pretty serious questions. And I'm sure your viewers can figure out why it would go towards why this particular aircraft was targeted, because there was no Americans on board. Just Canadians. And there was some other nationalities Ukraine had 11 I believe, mainly the flight crew in Sweden, Afghanistan, UK had a just throw this out here too. So I'm not gonna mention it. Otherwise, the Ukrainian Ukrainian government has a criminal investigation. They lost 11 citizens, they also had the plane registered. But you know, comparatively, number wise, it was horrible. Forgive me for even saying it that way. But they had 11 citizens, and we had 55. And we're not doing anything. But you you point out something I wish we went to write it down. But then when I miss what else you had said, I'm going to share something with your viewers. That is actually pretty shocking. And this is 100% reliable. When we did our announcement on the 27th of August, we had a press announcement. The lawyer for the Ontario superior case asked at the last minute if you can join our announcement. And we were happy to allow him time to speak. During that announcement, which is all on video. It's on my Twitter feed. It's out there on YouTube. He made a disclosure. Your your question was sort of focusing on Iran. What you weren't touching on because you didn't know to touch on was our government of Canada. So how are they acting towards the family but publicly? They act like they're sympathetic? You know, the photo op in Toronto was is Mr. Trudeau, Prime Minister Trudeau, you know, embracing this family member? Well, just quickly saying this, I'm going to forget to come back. I've spoken to that family member afterwards. I know he struggles with English, he's emotionally vulnerable. And he is extremely hurt by what the Prime Minister did there, because he now understands he was manipulated for a photo op. But the disclosure going back to our announcement by Mr. Mark Arnold was, and this is pretty close to quote, he goes in the past week, I have received threatening and harassing those are his words, emails from the lawyer for the Government of Canada on this on this case, he paused. He then characterize them by saying very distressing emails. And then he didn't allow himself to comment any further. So I'll repeat those his words were a government of Canada lawyer has communicated with the lawyer of the Ontario civil case, which is presently before the courts, the judgment has been rendered where they are now as are waiting for the award judgment to be announced. And that is actually going to probably come out the next few weeks is my understanding. So it is very much live. The Government of Canada is not a party in any way to this case. This is a private legal action by the families. And they are threatening and harassing his words. And Mr. Arnold is a man of measured words. So what the heck is going on there, and that the Government of Canada lawyers are so audacious and bold as to threaten a lawyer that's involved in an active case. This raises the specter of interference in the administration of justice. He went on in his later in his comments, he said, he said is beyond me why the government of Canada has taken such a, quote, hostile approach to this matter. So publicly. They they love the families, they're going to seek justice, but in the government saying justice, they don't mean justice. What they mean is and this is really important, is they want to take this away from the criminal realm to sweep it under the rug literally. And to go straight to reparations and settlement negotiations and the family, the family Members have I have spoken to I can't speak for all family members, of course, but the ones I've spoken to, without exception have called the blood money. They want criminal justice. reparations are down the road. So what happened there? I wish I could get to the Prime Minister on the campaign trail. Because why are the government lawyers actually threatening and harassing the family lawyer in this matter? Because they don't. And in both reports, Ralph Goodale is involved Ralph Goodale wasn't it was written before but the commissioners letter to the families and the friends report. None of them make a mention of this case. The government pretends it doesn't exist. yet. They're very much aware and very much bothered by it.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Wow, that's that's some pretty incredible. That's incredible stuff.

Unknown:

Well, we're hoping there is a there is a major news outlet that has said it's going to follow up Mr. Arnold, in my communication with and has indicated he's opened the door if the press want to approach Mr. Arnold, he'll expand on that. The additional information I know about it wouldn't be appropriate for me to say. But what I have said is 100%, threatening and harassing. And that's those are pretty strong. Those are very particular words.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

The more the more I hear about it, really this, this stuff starts to sound more and more almost like a tom clancy novel. That is it's it really is it's it. There's a system here that's supposed to be in place that's supposed to help Canadians that have been victims, and it's not being respected.

Unknown:

Why is this happening? Now? I don't know the answer to that. Any more than anybody else does. But let me say that so the judge has ruled that the shooting down was intentional. So logically speaking, if something's intentional, there was a reason for it. The reason is simple enough, somebody or something or and or something, or persons or persons on that plane. Iran did not want to leave their airspace and they were on that aircraft. Iran is never gonna admit that what Iran right now is skillfully manipulating this government. Now, I don't know if there's bullying going on behind the scenes. I wouldn't put that. You know, we don't know yet. That's what an investigation would uncover. Government is not going to be too fond of having that kind of, or we don't know if there's another behind the scenes agenda here. One name that your viewers may not be familiar with is Paya Makarova. He is the senior legal advisor global affairs Canada and the PSM five to file a family member was invited to a zoom telephone briefing or meeting where there was a number of lawyers from global affairs Canada, pi omaka, was one of them. And the family member who sent me the video of his question, the 13 minute video, I've gone through that a number of times and pi makabayan. At one point says something is very strange. And this is this is quote from the video. So this is not you know, it's an official briefing. And in this briefing, I should let let your viewers know that they think the plane pin the tail on the donkey with these family members, they spin around to the so busy, dizzy, they don't know which way they're facing. So at one point, government spokesman says the official position of the government of Canada's This is not an intentional shooting down. So they say that, but like literally a few sentences later will say it is a crime. Or it is it is and they will admit it is a criminal act. So a family member hearing that is just all confused. They don't know what to mean. Oftentimes a matter of fact, they called me after that going. They were so confused. They didn't understand what happened. Well, first of all, it was intentional. Secondly, yes, it was a crime. And when you say intentional to have a crime, you've got to have what they call mens rea. Now, there's different types of mens rea. There's general specific, I'm not going to get into all that. But essentially, the very core of any criminal offense most is involved in tension. What this government is skillfully doing is shifting the attention toward more the wording of negligence, which is not criminal. There is a criminal negligence, but they're trying to shift the toward a civil negligence. They don't want a criminal investigation. And you got to ask yourself, there was a motion passed, I believe, as of 2018, June of 2018. June 12 2018, where the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the motion was passed for them to be listed as a terrorist entity in Canada is never happened. So why is this government not listing the IRGC? Now, there was more to that motion there was part of it was not to resume normal diplomatic relations with Iran. So it's possible. They're not acting because they have an agenda to normalize relations with Iran, which, forgive me, I'll restrain myself but you've just murdered 55 of our citizens.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Well, I don't mean to cut you off and he but did the private Minister not meet with the President of Iran like a month after the incident.

Unknown:

I saw what happened. What happened was in the Munich Security Conference Zarif. It wasn't a scheduled meeting. My understanding of it was that Trudeau made the meeting occur, champagne was there. And it was on the 14th of February. So the shooting down was the eighth of January. It was just slightly over a month. And that's the pictures. I'm sure everybody in your viewing audience has seen of him genuflecting and bowing before J. Zarif. Who was the foreign minister? I mean, it's a ghastly image. I think one thing too, I'll say it very quickly is this government also uses the word tragedy to describe this. And tragedy is words matter. Our choice of words matter. tragedy is you know, great loss, it's misfortune that can even be a calamity. But in the end, it's a benign term. Fight PSM five to the shooting down of this flight is an atrocity. It's not a tragedy. It is barbarity of savageness, its brutality. And I think if you asked, any reasonable person is the shooting down of a civilian airliner by two missiles fired 30 seconds apart? That's precisely if that was a brutal act. I think most people would agree with you that that was a brutal act. And I think it's very important that we start using the word atrocity. The government won't the government insists on using the word tragedy. The word atrocity never appears in good Dale's report never appears in Jaworski, his report, the worst case report, excuse me. They make every effort to avoid the use of the word tragedy, because tragedy to me, if I'm Iran, listening to this says, We are clear of any criminal repercussions here. It's clear sailing right to the settlement table. And we'll just deal with this, we'll cut a check in end of the day. But now, it's important to go back to the complaint against the commissioner. But we say we demand which is what I referred to earlier. That's because the law stipulates there has to be an investigation. There is no discretion here. The commissioner can't say, well, it's kind of like, you know, every police officer can decide to give you a warning or give you a ticket or, you know, put you in a cab or taken for the breathalyzer. Well, yeah, those two latter examples that happens all the day and police discretion, the courts have recognized as a fundamental part of policing. But in 2007, and Canada, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in the case of rv beaudry, that discretion is not limitless. And I would argue, and I think I do so reasonably, that the mass murder of 55 Canadian citizens is outside her discretion to say no, she claims that the Ukraine is better positioned, they've had Mh 117 they have the experience with that. They come with that experience. They've had access to the crash site. And all that is hogwash. I mean, yes, they do have the experience, but right on the actual the, I've been to the prosecutors website, Ukrainian prosecutors website, and they talk about, I've called them particular offenses in Ukrainian law. They're called grave crimes. And this is a grave crime, they recognize the fact that they had a lot of the citizens and that they have the aircraft registered to them. But they said they don't have access to witnesses in Iran any more than Canada does. They can only account for their own citizens the investigation, they have no authority to address the sovereign interests of our own citizens. So for the RCMP Commissioner to slough this off, and in a fairness now, if I may, and I just asked you permission here, Russell, I should probably should comment on this letter. But because I'm talking all around it, and this will help people understand in this letter that was written to July 7 for the family. So as soon as it was sent, a family member sent it to me. And one sentence says this on the first page, while the RCMP is not conducting its own domestic criminal investigation. So I was aware of this in early June for a family member that was in a zoom meeting. But bear in mind is an investigator and listening to a family member. I hear his words, you know, English is, you know, is is a factor here. Did they hear the commissioner? Right? Is that really what the commissioner said? She wasn't gonna have a criminal investigation. Well, on July 7, you have this letter that says, in writing, we're not having a Canadian criminal investigation, so I went, I can't believe she said that in writing. But anyway, that's the actual basis on which we file the public complaint. I can post this again, it's all over my Twitter, but I can certainly repost it. On the second page, it's a three page letter and the letter is largely ambiguous at Trump. gambling. It's it's if you're if you want to deceive people, the language of this letter is written in the language of deception, in my view, and I have the training in forensic interviewing to be able to make that statement. And anybody in the RCMP hearing this will understand what I mean by that. But in particular, the first paragraph of page two, and I'll read to you the opening sentences. She says the commissioner, a question was also raised on whether the decision to not commence or lead a domestic criminal investigation in Canada. What is an RCMP decision? She continues, it is indeed our responsibility to make these decisions. What's interesting is she asks the question, she asked the right question, and she gives a non answer. You know, is it our responsibility, she acknowledges that it is and we all know, it's the RCMP responsibility to do it. She doesn't say she made the decision. What she does is she goes on to say that they consult with legal counsel and other advisors. So there's an interesting phrase other advisors, she doesn't say who the other advisors are. She goes on to say on the potential viability of obtaining physical evidence, access to witnesses, and consider related issues. Again, another interesting phrase, because she doesn't comment what consider related issues can be that could mean anything. It could mean literally anything, political issues. She then says in this case, that was the RCMP that decided Ukraine was the most competent authority to lead a criminal investigation into the downing she misses the question, she jumps right away that she made the decision to slough the file off slough off is a term that, you know, I'm familiar with my policing days, when you didn't want to do follow your sloughed it off, or some people tried to. And she says it's their decision to make, but she never says she made the decision. And just to tell you, when somebody is trying to see somebody, it takes a lot of emotional energy. And granted, this letter was written by somebody else's hand, ultimately, though, she signs it. So regardless of what lies behind this, her signature is on it, and she's accountable and responsible for

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Andy this letter and and kind of everything that's happened in Canada seems to be kind of reminiscent of SNC. Laughlin, he mentioned possible influence that may or may not have occurred, that that kind of sounds a little bit kind of like what happened with SNC. Do you think that it's possible that the commissioner may have had some influence? in a way that's diplomatic?

Unknown:

I'm very careful. In the words I say the words I said, Yes, I may have used the word influence. But what I've also said very specifically, is it raises the specter of interference in the administration of justice that was in relation to the threatening and harassment, the words of Mark Arnold, the lawyer in the civil case. So when you ask, Is it possible? Well, I do not doubt for one moment what Mr. Arnold said that he's been threatened and harassed by government lawyers on this matter. So publicly, it's all sunny ways, and smiling faces and tears and in sympathetic photo ops, but behind the scenes, they've instructed their lawyers to be hostile toward the families. We don't know the extent to that, because Mark Arnold hasn't commented, I'm just saying what exactly I know. So you have to ask yourself, if they are so brazen, so bold, so audacious, as to threaten a lawyer in an existing matter before the courts. Do you think that there was pressure exerted on the RCMP Commissioner to not open a criminal investigation when she is bound by law to do that very thing. So this and so this public complaint, they're in a tough situation, and it may only be dawning on them? now. You know, I certainly can't pretend to understand how the government behind closed doors may or may not be reacting, but they are aware of this for sure, because there is no way we've written this complaint of them getting out from under it. So what we did to and this is very important for your viewers to understand. We deliberately had the paperwork filed with the civilian review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, which is an independent body. It oversees the RCMP on these kind of matters. They are allowed to receive complaints we did not give it to the RCMP, because I spoke to retired colleagues who cautioned me that it would get buried if we had given a directive to the RCMP. That's a pretty sad state of affairs. No matter what they do. If they try to somehow squirm out of this, whatever they do, the CRC see at the end, we'll do what they do, and it's going to be subject to oversight, and there is no way that they cannot open a Canadian criminal investigations. I want you to pause for a minute and think, if you're Iran, and this is just pure to me speaking out loud here, just my own thoughts. How is Iran gonna react to this? Every signal every time they use the word tragedy, they're being signaled that you know, you're in the coast is clear, we're going to civil, not criminal. Now, Iran is aware, we know they're aware, because people in our coalition from the Iranian Canadian community who monitor regime friendly websites are talking about the chatter. They're picking up between these websites, and our social media accounts and reporting and how not pleased they are with the action that has occurred. This is a real problem. And Iran now is no longer in the clear. This investigation will uncover political interference if it occurred. And as I just answered your question, what's the likelihood of not having occurred because the commissioner has no authority to not open a criminal investigation. Other than and as I said, in her very own words, and as a forensic analysis analyst of language, she admits the responsibility is hers. She says she claims the decision to send it off in our rent on to Ukraine for the follow up, which is just to read Aaron, it's totally ridiculous, but never answers the exact question which she claimed she had the responsibility for, because she can't. And then they throw in those two other advisors and consider related issues, which are telltale actually the fact that they even remain in there after the amount of edits this has gone through.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Do you think and this is strictly your opinion? Do you think the Canadian government's afraid of the Iran government and what their response might be if if an investigation occurred the way it should?

Unknown:

while they're afraid the first thing an investigation is going to find us evidence that the IRGC as a terrorist entity? And that's going to bring they say publicly, that they want the RCMP to investigate the IRGC. Yet, here's here's one, they're not allowing. They don't want to see that evidence. We don't know why are they afraid? I think the other thing you have to look at too is step back from this picture. I mean, who's the back? Who's the backstop to Iran? I mean, we have the two Michaels in China. China is behind Iran at some level. I mean, we don't know the depth of this. We don't know how this government may be being manipulated or bullied. We have no idea. Then an investigation would uncover that. And I'd say, Yeah, they're afraid of the light being shone on the darkness.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

There's so much more information. I know, we could have covered and this I think, is just the we've only skimmed the surface of an issue that I think, may have started off as a big issue. But now it's become ballooned into a huge issue overall. What's the next steps for the coalition? Where do you go from here? How do you support the victims? And how are you going to ensure accountability?

Unknown:

Well, one thing I'm that been occurring as I've been receiving reports of threatenings against the families. And I can say this categorically, because I've had a number of people tell me this, they think the RCMP is being useless in their job. The RCMP claims that they're protecting the families, they speak to the family members, they're not they're saying they're useless. That's pretty hard. Because you know, you're saying, here's where I come from. And some of the things I hear are just, it just startled me. That may or may not come out. There's a there's a number of journalists that are kind of working on stories on this, and I'm not sure what's going to come to fruition and what isn't about angles. That's certainly one angle that's been talked about is the families, the information that has already been brought to our attention that I haven't discussed, that's still floating around out there, that's not going to go away. If we can ever authenticate anything. We have information right now, that if we can authenticate it, and we come out with it, this government, I can look them in the eye and say, No, no, no, you misleading the families, you're lying to the Canadian public, seriously lying, and they are sweeping this under the rug. That's exactly where that leads. And it's pretty powerful information.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Why why the mainstream media hasn't really kept up with this. There was a lot of initial reporting. There was some follow up reporting, but really, this story seems to have kind of died off. Why do you think that there? Isn't that much attention? I mean, there was some attention initially, there was a little bit of follow up, and everything's gone back to the 24, seven COVID news cycle. Why isn't this something that the mainstream media seems to be that interested in covering in your opinion?

Unknown:

We've had, we've had some very positive responses from a couple of mainstream media. Very, but the other reality too is we have an election and they're scrambling, right. They've got spinning plates right now. And whatever jockeying wherever decisions, they have to make whatever's news, they're very sympathetic to the story. There's another mainstream media outlet that is aware of the story very much they, they follow me, and they follow others. But they're not interested. It's pretty clear they're not interested, they may react to the story if it were to develop. I think right now in terms of the coalition, it's been there for the families. We've done what we can do right now we're waiting to see how the government responds, I mean, that the complaint is a powerful complaint. And there are serious allegations, it should literally result in the dismissal of the RCMP Commissioner at the end of the day. Unless she retires first, that sort of way she can escape it. And even if she does retire, all of a sudden, she announces her retirement, that only stops the Code of Conduct investigation, that does not stop the request for Acadian criminal investigation, they don't get out from underneath that. The only thing then would be that could conceivably hide any political interference that occurred. So if you see her retiring soon, I think you can connect the dots.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Andy, I really appreciate you coming onto the show today. It this interview has definitely been a very powerful interview, there's a lot of information. And you know, Canadians should be listening to this. And they should be asking themselves the tough questions, and they should be remembering that it's Canadian citizens that were affected. What does this look like for for Canada abroad? What does this say about Canada to other countries was to say to people that come to Canada that that hope that our laws and our democracy is going to protect them and respect their rights. It's a it's very disturbing.

Unknown:

So I'll close the two thoughts if I can, because I know this is the end. I've been trying to keep one eye open and looking at some of the comments here. And there have been some excellent comments. I haven't singled any out because that's your purview. But I want to do is bring this now to Canadians. Let's step back from PSM five to what does this mean, to Canadians in general, because I'm not affected by this, you know, and outraged by the way our government is doing. there's a there's a famous quote by Benjamin Franklin, which I actually got from a family member, and it reads, Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected, are as outraged as those who are not affected by PSM five to I don't have any family in Iran, but I am outraged. And that is the springboard for justice. But what I want Canadians to understand is if our government is not prepared to do everything in its power to protect its citizens outside of Canada when something like this happens, or to do everything it possibly can. When an atrocity like that happens, notice I use the word atrocity happens, then what signal do you send to the wider community that you're unwilling or unable to do so. And the next thing is, at what point when you're given other countries who are been in the news, you CCP agents, you've got repatriated ISIS fighters that are walking our streets, we don't know who they are, we do have a Romanian regime agents in this country who are threatening families. And, you know, arguably who some crime have already some crimes have been committed in this country. So at what point, Iran is going to realize I'll be very direct on this. They get away with this, they escape and evade justice on this. They're not going to hesitate to enter Canada with their agents and suppress dissidents here directly. And that's fine. We're gonna fight tooth and nail this because that is not going to happen.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Andy, thanks again, for coming on to the show. I, after this show I we got to talk because I really need you to come back on the show again, and I think I think the conversations just started.

Unknown:

Well, there'll be enough. Presumably, it'll be an update the Ontario case will have its there'll be the first in Canadian jurisprudence. So the award is going to be astronomical. I don't know numbers, I'll learn and everybody else learns it. There is talk of more family members joining the public complaint. There are some who have legitimate reasons to fear they may be doing so anonymously, because the complaint system allows for complaints in the witness protection program. The Act does that there are provisions to safeguard people's identity. So if anybody sees this, and they need to safeguard their data, you want to step forward, just get a hold of me. I'll put you in touch with the lawyer that we have that is doing this, the filings all that will be done and it will be done safely.