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March 5, 2021

Vaping, harm reduction and Government regulation, will it crush the market? with Clint

Vaping, harm reduction and Government regulation, will it crush the market? with Clint

In this episode Clint and I talk about what Vaping is all about, how it can help smokers quit, the benefits of harm reduction and personal choice.  We also delve into proposed Government regulations that may have significant impact in the vaping market and the ability to effectively utilize harm reduction methods for people who still smoke cigarettes. 

Clint can be found on youtube at  PlumeTube and on Twitter @DarthMods

If you enjoy the show please consider rating it on Apple or Podchaser to increase it's reach. Or you can support the show monetarily below which helps with hosting fees. 

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Transcript
Coffee Breath Conversations:

Hey, everyone, welcome back to Coffee Breath Conversations. And this episode is a live stream that I converted into a podcast. Now the live streaming service that I use, sometimes has a few drops. So there might be in some places, a little bit of disruption in the audio, but I've done my best to clean it up. So this week, I talked with Clint, Clint owns a vape shop, and he wanted to talk with me about proposed government regulation that would crush the market. I think it was a great conversation. And I think it especially if you vape, or you're concerned about government over regulation, that you'll get a lot of value from this episode. So without further ado, let's get started. Alright, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Coffee Breath Conversations. I'm your host, Russell Barton. And today I have Clint, Clint is here to talk a bit about e cigarettes versus cigarettes, his story and we're also going to talk a bit about government regulation.

Unknown:

Thank you, Russell. I was a two pack a day smoker. I started smoking when I was about 1314. When I got into high school, I quit when I was 31. I believe I was about nine years ago now. Then I started getting in to helping my friends and family tried to get on to E cigarettes. And then I actually started working in a vape shop about 878 years ago. And about four years ago, I ended up opening my own vape shop. And that's what I've been doing today. Helping 1000s of people quit smoking, which is an amazing, amazing job like I love doing this is the best thing I've ever done in my life. So why did you start smoking in the first place? Probably just because my friends did it. I actually remember once or twice, me and a friend when I was probably about eight or nine. I stole a couple cigarettes off my mom who smoked and we went to the stairwell of our building and tried it and choked our butts off. And I really started smoking about high school, mostly because most of my friends were doing and it was just something to do.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

You said that you were a two pack a day smoker.

Unknown:

Yes, I was. I tried everything Nick patches, gums Zai, Ban Chantix, those pills made me so sick, and I had such bad chest pains. They were horrible that nothing ever worked. I tried them multiple times. And then one day, I just randomly saw an e cigarette in a convenience store. I'm like, Oh, I heard about these things. And I just picked it up. And it was like almost instantaneously that day, I didn't smoke a cigarette from the time that I got that vape. The next morning, I had my morning smoke. Because the juice that I had didn't really go with my coffee. I'm a coffee drinker, so and then the next day the same thing, but I ended up finding a juice that went with my coffee. So the third morning, I didn't have that morning smoke, and I haven't had a cigarette since when I realized that vaping was going to be something huge for people I knew, like I knew almost right away almost instantly that this was going to be big for people trying to quit smoking,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

what led to you wanting to work in a vape shop.

Unknown:

I'm just not a rich person. I've always wanted to do something, to be able to help people. It Be my job at the same time. That's a really tough task to do. I tried feeding homeless in the past, you know, going out just volunteering at places. It was just nothing I could get as a career as well. And then when I realized how much vaping was gonna help people quit smoking, at least in my opinion, at the time, I had the feeling it was going to be something big. I knew that this is something I wanted to be a part of, because smoking was one of the biggest things people were trying to get out of their lives. And it was one of the hardest things to get rid of. Even with all the help that was out there, right when I saw that the E cigarettes got me off and like a couple days I was like, Man, this is gonna be huge. People need to know about this. I honestly thought our health organizations were going to get behind it because at least I understood the US there for profit health care, but in Canada, we are not. And I thought that because smoking was such a huge cost to our healthcare, that anything that would get people to stop smoking they would be behind and when they were I'm very upset and flabbergasted about that. I don't understand. I really don't

Coffee Breath Conversations:

tell me what you do to help people in the community and tell me how you came about opening your own vape shop.

Unknown:

I began working in a vape shop and Then after I left there, probably about two, three weeks, the next two, three weeks after I left a bunch of people like 3040, people look me up on Facebook and asked me where I went, where I was going to start working. And I basically just told them that I was going to look for another vape shop to work at and they kind of all encouraged me to open my own vape shop, they said, don't work for somebody else, do it for yourself, and we'll support you. And I was like, okay, it was, that whole thing was very humbling. Because I've never heard of that before. Most people just go to another store or go to another place. But these people wanted my service and my knowledge. So that was a very humbling thing for me. And it's one of the major reasons why I made the decision to actually open the store because like I said, I'm not a rich person. Everything I did was out of pocket. The government hates us, the banks hate us, I could get no loans, no help. I didn't have a partner. Everything was done on my own. And it's sad that that had to happen. But I'm grateful for those people. And I'm grateful to be where I am today. Because I love doing this. I love helping those people quit smoking, it's just the best thing in the world.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Why e cigarettes over cigarettes? We've heard a lot about the dangers of cigarette smoking. Now, why would someone want to quit smoking cigarettes, and take up e cigarettes instead?

Unknown:

So I thought a lot about how I was going to come at this subject. And I thought the best way for me to do it would be for me to just to explain it how explain to another person coming in here asking me questions. So the very first thing we always have to remember, for the last 150 years, we have come up with medical safety standards, workplace safety standards for inhalation and exposure to toxic chemicals. We have air quality standards, a bunch of standards that we now have to abide by, and do testing to make sure that the places that we work and in places that we congregate are all safe for us to be in. We know these, our son is a ball of radiation. So we have the ability to be exposed to toxic chemicals and it not harm us all the time. Right, we can resist some before it actually becomes toxic to our body. Any new product comes out now they do Toxicology tests, they do a bunch of testing to put them to those standards and make sure they're okay for us to use. So e cigarettes have been on the market now about 15 years. And there's been hundreds on my laptop right now I have over four or 500 different medical journal scientific studies, data of proof in humans, not rats, not cells grown in a lab, but actual human proof of harm reversal for people that had like smoking related disease and asthma, and stuff like that, when they fully switch over to using an e cigarette, they see harm reversal, things that are continuing to damage our body. They don't allow our bodies to heal themselves, they continue to damage our body. So that's why generally when you see studies that say, oh, people smoking and vaping are still seeing damage. Well, yes, because smoking damages our body. So if you're going to continue to smoke that is going to continue to damage your body. But if you are going off cigarettes, and on the last toxic thing, straight up, yes, e cigarettes produces some toxins. What we have to ask is, what level of toxin are they producing? And is it dangerous to us? Is it too much exposure to our body to cause damage to us? That's what we have to ask. One of my favorite examples is the metals, the toxic metals and vapes, right? Are asthma inhalers and stuff like that also produce toxic metals into our lungs. So there is a medical safety standard that they have to be tested against, to make sure they're not producing those levels of toxic metals. There was two studies done there was 1000 posts a day and 1200 posts a day, Dr. farsalinos did the 1200 puff a day I'm not quite sure who did the 1000 I can't remember. But what he did was he did a comparison of those 1200 posts and then did it to our medical safety standards for medical inhalers. And he found that even at 1200 posts a day so the average vapor is taking anywhere from about 200 to maybe about 500 posts a day, depending on how much they're puffing on or if they're quitting or not quitting right. If you're quitting, you'll puff on it a little bit more generally about two to 500 per day, most people so I 1200 posts that's way above the average anybody's going to do but they wanted to make sure that they had enough right. And they still found that after that 1200 pots a day our medical inhalers can still produce two to three times more metals into our lungs and be safe to inhale by medical safety staff. These are the things that we need to look at. We can't just say, oh, there's toxic metals, we don't know, we don't know, we don't know. We do know, we can test it to the standards and say, Well, this is what it produces. That's not enough to be toxic to our bodies. There's been air sampling tests done, where they found that the air inside the cloudy vape shop that you can barely see in was actually cleaner the breeze than the air right outside the vape shop. That just shows you that the chemical exposure from an e cigarette is far less dangerous than a cigarette. We're exposed to most of these chemicals all the time anyway. So how much are we being exposed to more from a vape? Those are the questions that people need to ask. And their answers are out there.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Now do you find that there's an influence of Big Tobacco on E cigarettes, I know that some tobacco companies are starting to take up e cigarettes as part of their kind of what they sell. But I remember when e cigarettes really kind of hit the mainstream about five years ago, when they really started to hit mainstream. It seemed like big tobacco was taking out ads, and they were doing a lot of lobbying and attempts at public influence on getting people deterred away from E cigarettes.

Unknown:

In my opinion, the way I see big tobacco, I think they tried to take us out a little bit, but they realized it wasn't going to happen. So instead of beating us, they decided to join us. So they have jewel, they have views are viable product to have I cos. So they got into the harm reduction, in my opinion more because they realized that people were going to quit smoking and they're not going back with those products, in my opinion, from what I have seen. And if you actually look at who is giving all the bad studies and we need to do extra taxes, it's it's actually a big pharma. So big pharma is the one that causes most of the problems for the industry. Because, in my opinion, cigarettes is one of the major reasons for lung disease, heart disease, cancer, COPD, all those all those diseases, organizations like Canadian Lung Association, Heart and Stroke Association, they all make hundreds of billions of dollars from people donating, getting those cancer treatments, getting those medications, getting all the asthma inhalers. Their nrts are small fries, because most people know they don't really work. So people try them, but they don't last on them. What they make most of their money on his people getting sick from tobacco related disease. If we get rid of tobacco, people stop smoking, that's hundreds of billions of dollars lost and all those diseases, right to doctors, like the people that deal with you and me, fantastic people. I know they have your n eyes best interests at heart. But when it comes to the big corporations, I do not believe that for a second, not for one millisecond that they have our best interest in heart. I hate to say it, but over the last seven years, people like Health Canada, and our health org that went directly into schools and held assemblies, and showing pictures of candy and gummy bears and kids holding vapes and doing vape tricks and puppets vaping directly marketing and targeting teens and 1000s of them. Like the dare programs, there's a whole reason they stopped those things, right? And they just repeated the same mistake of vaping and then blamed this industry for it. I've never once ever went into a school and said, Hey, kids, vape I've never talked to kids about vaping other than my own. I don't go to teens, I don't promote it to kids. On the other hand, those smoking teens vaping save their life, know straight up that it saved their life. They were the future cancer long heart disease patients and why in my opinion, Big Pharma is so focused on the teen vaping epidemic and stuff like that because those were the future. cancer, lung Money, Money money. That's just my opinion anyways, right from what I've seen,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

it's hard to disagree with because there is a huge industry around cigarettes it's tied into the government is tied into private industry. There's a reason why they didn't stop selling cigarettes when COVID first came out even though COVID is a disease that affects the lungs. And quitting smoking is probably one of the ways that can help you.

Unknown:

I this is not by any means encouraging smoking at all. But there's actually a lot of data I don't have in front of me because I didn't think I was gonna use it but they found that I believe it was like smokers where I think it was 90% less likely to go to an ICU if they catch COVID 50% less likely to even catch COVID in the first place.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

And why do you think that is?

Unknown:

That's actually not my opinion. This is an opinion from actual. Dr. farsalinos, the guy I was telling you about who did the metal study, he believes that our we have the h2 or h3 receptors or something like that nicotine and SARS cough to both interact with our h2 receptors. And he believes that the nicotine because it's blocking COVID from getting an interacting with those receptors, it's helping get people not infected as much.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Well, that's interesting. I had no idea about that.

Unknown:

Yeah, I can actually, I'll send you that information. I don't have all the stats on that known by heart because I don't talk about that one a lot. But there is actual some information out there that suggests even in France right now they're doing Nick patch studies on COVID patients to see how it works.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Anything they can find that works, I guess as long as it's not going to create more harm.

Unknown:

Exactly.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Going back to what you had said previously about cigarettes kind of tied in with Big Pharma and, and the government. I mean, cigarettes had been a government cash cow for a very, very long time. When I was younger, I think a pack of cigarettes was seven $8. And I think the same pack now is 18 to $19. Yeah,

Unknown:

something like 2% tax on our tobacco or something like that. It's insane.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

The valuation of the product compared to the cost. It doesn't seem to be very proportionate. But they they kind of call like a sin tax, right? Yep. Now, are vaping products taxed the same way that tobacco products are taxed?

Unknown:

At this moment? No. Right now, it's just considered a consumer product. However, they are proposing a 20% tax hike on it. And I'm not sure if they're gonna do that per milliliter or why. Right now they're trying to two things they're the government are looking at is a nicotine cap to 20 milligrams, and a 20% tax on E cigarettes.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

But why is the government looking into this? is there is there any actual reason that benefits Canadians to limit nicotine amounts and for the additional taxation,

Unknown:

really the only excuse and you're gonna find me say this a lot? It is the youth nicotine addiction. That is the one and only reason they have to do any of this to us. They've tried for like 10 years now they've tried to find the harm in E cigarettes. That's why you've heard studies like Stanton glance talking about giving you a 30% more chance of having a heart attack. Well, that study got retracted because it was wrong. The data in it was just wrong. Just because a study comes out new published does not mean it's true. There are 10s, hundreds of 1000s of brilliant researchers and scientists out there in the world. And they also have to be able to look at that and see if they have any information that contradicts that or is better. Right. And you so that's why you hear all over. You heard all over the news, that study but when it got retracted. Did you hear that on the news? Another great example vaping vaping lung injuries. So vaping is a verb. When somebody says to you, I'm going out to smoke a cigarette. What product Do you think they're smoking?

Coffee Breath Conversations:

cigarettes physical cigarette

Unknown:

like tobacco, right? if somebody were to say to you, I'm going to smoke a joint. What product Do you think they're smoking? THC? That's right. So because the word vaping has been associated with nicotine e cigarettes for so long, when the new started going vaping lung injuries vaping lung injuries, everybody just automatically associated that with nicotine e cigarettes and didn't even think about it being any other kind of product when the fact was, it was tainted vitamin E acetate, black market THC. THC and nicotine products are two totally separate products. I can't even sell THC products in my store. They're two totally different products. When somebody says vaping you have to ask, Well, what were they vaping? What were they smoking? What were they eating? Right? You can eat lettuce, but you can't eat lettuce full of back or E coli. Right? Like, you have to ask these questions right and they're the news is very vague about it a lot. vaping is a verb it just means heating up a liquid and inhaling it. If you stand over a pot of soup as you're cooking it, you're now vaping soup diacetyl if you nuke popcorn in your microwave and you say Smell that nice buttery flavor. That's tassel. You're now vaping diacid, all the whole big popcorn lung scare thing. These are the misconceptions that the media has presented to people. The proper context needs to get out there. And that's what I'm trying to do anyways as best as possible.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Just to get back again for a second, Big Pharma and the government, they seem to kind of be a bit hand in hand. You know, their big thing is what will someone think of the children the app so they don't always say they got rid of menthol cigarettes because they were trying to say that menthol cigarettes, were encouraging teenagers to smoke. Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't buy it. I don't think that there's any legitimacy to that. I think it was a bit of a ploy. They'll say, we don't want you smoking menthol cigarettes, but they really don't seem to have that much concern with people smoking regular cigarettes. I mean, if they truly thought that it was as detrimental as they say it was, would it not be banned altogether?

Unknown:

And why are they banning e cigarettes which is proven less harmful, while still leaving cigarettes on the market? That actually is the biggest question people should be asking right now. Why are you banning the things that have saved 10s of millions of smokers lives in the last 15 years, while leaving a thing that's killing them, and then saying it's for our health?

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Well, and how much money has been saved in our health care system to having people switch to E cigarettes. When I quit smoking cigarettes, I switched to E cigarettes, I noticed a noticeable difference in just my quality of life when it came to breathing and all sorts of different things.

Unknown:

Yeah. Remember, about six months into me quitting. I woke up one morning, and I just felt like a million bucks. My first thought wasn't where's my cigarettes, where's my coffee, it was, I'm going to get up and go walk my dog. And it just occurred to me like, wow, cigarettes had that much control over my life, like you don't realize how much control smoking has over you until you actually stop it. Because you can literally be doing anything, and be like, I need a cigarette, and you're gonna stop doing what you're doing to go have that cigarette. I've noticed over the last four or five years now, I can go a whole day and not vape and not even notice it. I come to I've had days off where I would come home from my shop. My vape would be in my coat pocket. I would stay home the whole day, wake up the next morning and go, Oh, where's my vape it was still in my coat pocket from when I came home the day before. And I didn't even notice that I hadn't had it the whole day. I think people mix up a diction and really, really, really liking something. My analogy for people for that one is liking our favorite songs. So we our favorite song, we can listen to it 100 times a day, it makes us feel good. It produces endorphins in our brain that makes us want to dance and it makes us feel happy, right? So we continually create that situation to make ourselves feel good. Well, vaping is kind of the same way. And actually even if you think about it, the perfect Coffee, Breath Conversations and calf caffeine. So nicotine and caffeine are basically on the exact same level of stimulants, it does the almost the exact same things to our body. it harms our body in the exact same ways. We can drink coffee all day long and not even think about it right. It's really just bad stigma, right? Like we allow teams to go into coffee shops all day long and drink lattes and coffee and energy drinks and all that kind of stuff and no one blinks an eye. But the moment they put nicotine into their system, and everybody's freaking out like it's the end of the world. When the facts are, it's really not any worse. And not even just my opinion. That's a scientifically proven things like they've shown these things with proven data.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

So by trying to regulate e cigarettes what what does the what is the government claiming it will do to help Canadians?

Unknown:

They literally just said it's it's for kids and for health. It's for the kids health. We don't want kids addicted to anything. We're addicted to many different things all the time. Like I said, like listening to your favorite song. Are you addicted to that? Because it makes you feel good? Is there anything wrong with making wanting to make ourselves feel good, grim green, he's like a big vape advocate on YouTube. There's a movie called it just came out called you don't know nicotine. And this is where I'm actually giving you a lot of information I just learned recently right now actually, Nick green said it the best in that movie, I think, are we upset about addiction for addiction sake, regardless of the harm? Are we is it just because it makes us feel good and that's why there's something wrong with it. Because we We get a headache, we take a Tylenol makes us feel better. We're tired, we drink a coffee, it wakes us up, right? These things don't do very much damage to us. So nobody really cares, right? So Shouldn't it be if it's causing damage to our body, then yeah, we should care about a little bit more. But in the end, it's your choice whether to do it. It's my choice whether to do it and the government. My favorite thing to say to people is, I am here to educate you not to dictate to you. So when people come in, I will give them my advice, they will take my advice and go off. And then when they come back, they'll tell me how they feel. And that I will go off that, right. If they say I need more neck. Okay, I'm going to give that to you know you better than I do, right? So that's why no government should ever be able to tell anybody what they need. Never. You can have my nanny state. Exactly, exactly. You can advise us say this is what we think this is what might possibly happen, but look into it. But in the end, it's our choice, right? I mean, isn't that really why cigarettes was left in the first place? Alcohol, we have Lucky Charms beer, cotton candy vodka, that kills teens in their actual teen years. No one cares about those flavors. But yet the moment we have flavors and nicotine, we're doing it to advertise to teens and try to get teens addicted. That just makes no sense.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

The government doesn't seem like there's their response to things aren't necessarily always very proportionate. mean, you're 100%, right? You go and you can buy alcohol in any type of different flavors, and many of them are candy related flavors and think sourpuss is one of the most popular alcoholic drinks amongst teenagers. But there's no calls to ban sourpuss. No, there's no calls to ban any of the vodka flavors that are candy kind of flavored out here. personal accountability, right?

Unknown:

Like we have a whole This is what I never understood. We have a whole youth system that holds them accountable for their decisions to break laws and misbehave. If they steal a car, they get held accountable for it. If they get caught with alcohol, or they just left alone, hack know that alcohol is confiscated. Parents are called they are in trouble. So why when I was 14, that I go to school, and they say smoking is bad for you shouldn't smoke, but your smoking section is over here. They basically encouraged it without encouraging it.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Well, they knew that they couldn't control it. So it was harm reduction to just have an area where people could congregate to smoke, rather than just banning it outright, because then they just go into the neighbor's lawn off school property to do so.

Unknown:

Well, yeah, but I'm what my point was kind of getting to though, like with alcohol, like so say, say we had an alcohol section? Do you think a cop would go drive by high school and just not do anything to a bunch of teens drinking booze in the parking lot? No, they would get in a lot of trouble. It would all get confiscated. fines would happen? A lot would happen. So why by God's name, do they just pass by from a smoking section? Well, then the only and the only sorry, the only thing I can think of is because we know alcohol can kill them that day. Tobacco probably won't kill them until they're 50 or 60. Right? So the the risk is a lot more with alcohol. And on top of that, when you drink you cannot function properly most of the time, right? So there's a difference between using nicotine and smoking and being able to still function properly. And drinking I I get that point. I'm not trying to be like, way out of the ballpark here. I'm just in comparison, right? Like they would never just pass by teens drinking. why they do that for teen smoking. It just doesn't make sense to me. They can stop. Find those kids. call those kids. parents say your kid was smoking. We took his pack of cigarettes today. find out who's selling them those cigarettes, find that store, take their license away from even being allowed to sell cigarettes. These stores can sell 1000 packs of cigarettes, make a ton of money and get a $500 fine. They're just going to laugh at that take away their license to selling it. They're going to think twice about doing it.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

I agree. I mean, when I was a teenager, everyone knew the store in town while the store nearby to the high school that you will go in you would show your ID so it looked like you were showing your ID for the camera. And then they would give you a pack of cigarettes. There was no Questions is no one really checked your ID. As far as they were concerned, as long as you had the money, they were willing to sell you cigarettes.

Unknown:

Yep. And that's sad. That is why it's sad. And then in the end, like, and what's what is even the one of the most frustrating thing about this whole situation, the government does it. But the industry gets blamed for it. For example, the government goes into schools and advertise vaping to kids. But because we have some advertising for it online, or in our stores, we're the ones responsible for teens choosing to vape that just, that is the most infuriating thing. And the plain fact is teens join gangs, teens drink, teens, steal cars, teens do a lot of things on their own, by their own choices. They have friends that are of age parents that are willing to get it for them. Right. So you can't blame an industry for their transgressions. It's personal accountability. That's I'm a huge advocate of personal accountability.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

For years and years, we've known cigarettes are they're not good for your health in the long term. They're not good for your health. But why is it that there seems to be a real focus on targeting e cigarettes compared to regular cigarettes, when it comes to their targeting for use?

Unknown:

I think really, what it comes down to is they're trying to claim that because we have all the fruity flavors in it, and it tastes good, and it's enjoyable, that is going to renormalize smoking, or that teens are going to start vaping and then get into smoking. But the actual data and the actual studies over the last 10 years prove quite the opposite. In fact, moking for both teens and adults are at record lows they have ever been and dropped the fastest in the last 10 years because of E cigarettes. So if it was a gateway, that wouldn't be happening, it would be going up, up, up, up, up up, right. The reason why stats are confusing is because government combined smoking and vaping as the same thing. So when they say tobacco product, teens using tobacco products, while smoking cigarettes, and E cigarettes are both under the same category. So those numbers, so of more teens are vaping. But smoking less, that number still gonna go up as a tobacco product use because it's the same category, right? If they were just comparing e cigarettes and smoking, you would see Yeah, vaping might be going up. But smoking is way down here. Right? So they try to confuse people with misconceptions and twisting data. That's why it's really important for people to take a look at these studies for themselves and try to understand the context for themselves, right? Because the reality is, yes, maybe 5% of teens are smoking. But 95% of teens are not. So most teens don't smoke, most teens don't vape a very small amount of them. East cigarettes have saved 10s of millions of smokers lives. What are we comparing here, a little bit of dependence like coffee, we become a little dependent on coffee, we like it because it helps stimulate our body. But like, in the end, if we don't want to drink coffee, we just stopped drinking it is really what happens with E cigarettes. You don't know nicotine movie again, a perfect example. For people that are like this, if you're down here on your mood, nicotine will help you bring you back up to the top. But if you are already up at the top, and you're feeling good, nicotine will probably bring you back down again. So it's not good if you're already feeling good, and you really aren't feeling stress or anxiety and stuff like that. But if you are feeling those things, Nick will help alleviate those. You really have to compare damage harm, and yeah, okay, I like doing this a lot more than maybe some other things. But am I harming myself? No. So why does it matter? I mean, I would think most people, I would hope most people would agree with that, right? Because we like doing things we eat fast food, we eat candy, we eat sugar, lots of things that kill us diabetes. Lots of diseases come from eating these things, but they're still readily available for everybody because we know the dangers and it is our responsibility to make sure that we don't over indulge in those things.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

government regulation into the industry. Is there a fear that it would cause shops to be closed? I mean, you look at Marijuana Regulation can open a marijuana store so close to a school you can have it within certain feet of each other. There's a lot of very strict regulations about that. Do you think something like that is coming to the cigarette industry.

Unknown:

If the only regulation is a 20 milligram cap, it will harm it severely. But it will not take it out. Because we can get around that with some other methods. Most people are like a lot of people aren't going to go for those other methods. And that's the problem, but some will. So there is still going to be products for some people. But in my opinion, we did not start this industry to be big pharma only helps some people quit, we want to help all people quit. So we should have all the products available to make sure that happens if we take some of them away. And really, we're taking away the products that are for the heavier smokers, the people that we need to help the most get off cigarettes. So if we're taking the products away for the heavier smokers that are the ones that are more than likely you're going to get those smoking related diseases, then what is the whole point of it? Why did they? Why did they call us the scum of the earth and push us outside and tell us that we're bad for smoking for the last half a century? And then when we finally find something that is going to help us do it, they take it away from us why there is no rhyme or reason to what they're doing, other than there is a lot of influence by lobbying, and by our charity health organizations and our government and our policy. You know, what a perfect example of that. Scott Godley, he was the guy that coined the term vaping youth epidemic. Do you know where he is right now?

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Where's he at? No,

Unknown:

CEO of some nice pharmaceutical company right after he left the FDA. What does that tell you? Nice swinging door. Oh, you helped us out. You You killed that INDUSTRY HALF for us. Now come have a nice cushy job as a CEO is one of our pharmaceutical companies. That's what happens a lot. The CEOs come in from pharma companies go into like our charity, house ARDS, influence our government for policy, and then go back into those chairs or back into those big pharma or it's again, you see it happen all the time. The the Canadian Lung Association, I believe, don't quote me on that, again, I believe, Terry, I can't remember his last name, the CEO of that he was from a pharma company just prior to that position. So you see it, it's a big swinging door of what's best for farmer profits over what's best for actual our health. And and, and I want to say this, I'm not an anti Vax person at all, I believe in a tried and tested vaccines. But comparing this new vaccine that just came out to mRNA. It is already armed people and that is approved to inject into billions of people yet 15 years later, e cigarettes have harmed no one save 10s of millions of lives. And we're about to fight the government from trying to ban it.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

It's almost like if if you want this product to keep going you have to almost lobby and put money into government. on your end. Is this a pay to play sort of thing? Almost?

Unknown:

I'm going to say yes. I think that is why they're trying to cause a lot of issues for us. Because Philip Morris, Altria, they're a few companies producing most of the backup products. So they most of their money is conjoined in the one, whereas the e cig industry was started by people like myself, who were just ex smokers that wanted to help other people get off cigarettes. So we're just mostly one or two, three little vape shops here, and they're spread out through all of Canada. So we do have our we do have like the CVA and we do have visa, and organizations like that. But those are, we're not all one with them. There's a lot of head butting with what everybody thinks. So it's it's really hard for our industry to get together that way like big tobacco has. So we can say hey, here, here's some money, stop trying to ban it. We shouldn't even have to do that. It's sad that I'm even having to think about the situation. We should never have to do that. It is the best product ever invented in decades to help people quit smoking. It we shouldn't have to think about how we can get the government to give it us permission to use it. It should just be allowed. Like I don't understand who these public servants think they are. They're not serving us very well.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

The government really has this thing where they don't like grassroot organizations, the vaping industry, very, very grassroot. And then it seemed like when it really started to hit mainstream, the hit pieces started coming out. It was the popcorn lung. It was the least flavorful things are going to get your kids addicted. It was all sorts of anti East cigarette propaganda. But same with the marijuana industry. I mean, the government only really got involved with that when they realized there was a profit to be made in it. Before that it was enforcement. But the gray market got so big the grassroot people used to joke around that Canada Post was the biggest drug smuggling operation in Canada. Just because people were purchasing so much from gray markets. Yeah. And it really seems like these grassroot organizations that are started, that aren't regulated. The government comes in there and says, we need to regulate these industries for whatever reason, they seem to think that they know best when it comes to these industries. And then years later, we really find out that these industries, the the industry disruptors, like vaping, for the cigarette industry, there was a lot of lobbying and influence in the background, you know, the government really didn't care that much about regulation until it started to affect the bottom line for other people.

Unknown:

Yeah, I think that's where our major, major, major, major problem is influence and lobbying in our government. Our vape industry just doesn't have that power. We don't have the power to lobby the government. We did campaigns. So this the there's a campaign going on now. But we've done these campaigns before where we wrote into the government and how everybody write in a letter and call, if I remember correctly, it was something like 30,000 submissions or 20,000 submissions or something to the government. But because it was all a pre done letter, no matter that it was sent in by 20,000 different people, it was at all said the same thing. So they only took it out to one submission. Like they do things like that to just make things more difficult. Another thing, the new childproofing laws, there is absolutely no reason for the tanks and the pod systems and RDS to have to be childproof. There's just not enough liquid in those things to do anybody any harm. Even if a little baby were to drink one of those tanks, that's still not even close to enough to even make it feel sick, you have to drink a lot of Nick, I think the bare minimum is like half a gram of nicotine, pure nicotine in our systems to start doing some kind of harm to us. That's a lot of Nick

Coffee Breath Conversations:

kind of gets back to what we said earlier about the nanny state, I was talking with someone who owns a cannabis store on an earlier episode. And the packaging, you know, our government has been really big on you know, we're supposed to be saving the planet getting away from plastic sustainable resources, sustainable energy, the packaging requirements for marijuana are incredible, like the amount of plastic involved the amount of someone's buying one item. And it comes in a plastic container that's like this big, it's it's ridiculous. We're trying to protect the children. At the end of the day, it's the individual user and the individual person's job to ensure that any products that could potentially harm their children are put away safely. Yeah, regulating it through the government does actually, in my opinion, very little to actually assist if a child really wants I mean, anyone, I don't have children, but I have friends that do if a child really wants to get into something, they're gonna find a way. They're smarter than we give them credit for. There's a reason why like, if you have kids, you have to take all your like stuff you would normally keep under the sink, and you have to either lock them up or put them out of reach somewhere. That's your responsibility as a parent, that's not the government's responsibility to make you do.

Unknown:

exactly when they started believing that it was, it is anybody's guess it boggles me why they think that is their responsibility, personal accountability, we as parents should be able to make those decisions. So like, I've never I've been my child's been around for four years, I've had multiple tests where they send teens and trying to sell to me, okay, I've never sold to anybody under age. But in my opinion, if a parent knows their kid is smoking, or doing already engaging in risky activity, and they don't want their kid going to the street and buying bad products, if they decide to buy for their kids, that is their choice. We can't tell these parents are not allowed to do these things. Because in the end, what's going to happen, their kid is going to go to the black market anyway. because like you said, they're going to get what they want, however way they're going to get it. So if a parent doesn't want their kid to get harmed, they're going to make sure they're getting things that are better, right? They're not going to harm them. things with like alcohol. Those are different stories, physically debilitate people if you do it too much, right. So that is why there are strict laws and strict rules. And no, I don't care that you're 16 You shouldn't be drinking on to your frickin adult. So you can make those proper decisions properly, right? We know kids do it anyways. But that's why we're more strict on that. for stuff like smoking, no dots. As we said before, we know that's not really it's not something that they should be doing. But it's not going to kill them tomorrow. It's something that's going to be worse for them later on. So we don't really enforce those rules too much other than if you're a star, you're not allowed to sell to the minors, right. But they get them anyways from parents and other people. So while I would never say, teens should vape, I don't think they should do anything that's not good for them, they're going to do it anyways. And out of all the things they do vaping is probably the least damaging to them. I don't see the government making all these extra regulations going to all they're doing is making it harder for adult smokers to access the products, they need to quit smoking. That's all they're doing.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Under the guise of morality, and government's going to save us from ourselves,

Unknown:

we need to make we need to start making evidence based policies and stop appealing to emotion. That's what we need to do. Good luck.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Good luck with that. It's kind of that's the flavor the last couple years, it's whoever's outraged the most gets the most attention. And whoever can scream the loudest from the rooftops, everyone rushes to, to listen to what they have to say.

Unknown:

We're just going back to buying that magical tonic from the dude who just came back from the Amazon rain forest and got it from the tribe there. We stopped buying those tonics, because we realized that not very scientific of us, that's not very smart thing to do. We should no longer taking not everything's not a miracle cure,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

getting back to teen vaping, because that kind of seems to be where they're basing a lot of this regulation around is knows some won't someone think of the children type thing. Yeah, a teenager can't go into the store. They can't buy cigarettes, they can't buy lottery tickets. They can't buy alcohol when they go into the store. For obvious reasons for alcohol, lottery tickets, probably as well. You know, you could argue that those same kids go in the store, they go and they buy the NRS. Can the nos can have energy drink, which is one of the worst ones in my opinion. You can buy they'll buy two of those. And then within the matter of a couple hours, they'll drink two of them with with their friends. Yeah. And then they're like, man, my heart's pounding really, really fast. And I'm getting dizzy. Yeah,

Unknown:

I know that caffeine kills my stomach,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

that amount of caffeine because those are extremely high caffeine drinks. And they'll drink two or three of them in a day. There's no regulation there. No one saying should do anything there. It's interesting where the morality applies. It applies on certain things. I'm not innocent on this, like I eat plenty of bad food. I really do. I should be making healthier choices. The end of the day, it comes down to personal choice. So these people, they claim that they care about the children so much. No one's regulating fast food. No one's regulating the amount of sugar and chocolate in supermarkets. Yeah, chocolate milk, even advertised chocolate milk is something that's healthy for you when it's literally just a sugar drink. Yeah, skim milk, same thing, it's just full of sugar. We've decided that the threshold for that is acceptable.

Unknown:

Yeah. Where does that stop? Why is it acceptable for some and then not for the other? Do we draw the line at how much harm it's going to cause? Because in reality, tomorrow, I can go sign up to tie a backpack to my back and jump out of a plane, or tie an elastic to my belt and jump off a bridge. And I could die from that right there. And then but I still have the choice to do that. Where does that line draw? How come? We allow some things, but not the others. And it just doesn't make any sense that we allow tobacco. But we're talking about banning what's actually saving people from tobacco, and it doesn't even harm anybody. And that's the whole thing. Look, if anybody can ever give me actual proven harm in humans, from using an e cigarette regularly, like a regulated e cigarette that you bought from a store and bought the juice from the store, if anybody has ever got harmed from that, I would love to see that data. And I would change my opinion, but on till I see the data. My opinion can't change. I am not willing to allow my emotions to take over. And while I agree that yes, we do need to make sure that our kids are protected. That is not my responsibility to make sure the world's kids are protected. I have to protect my kids, and you have to protect your kids. And you have to set rules and boundaries of what you feel that are okay for your children. And I have to do the same and yours and mine might not be the exact same, but that's okay. But you can't tell me mine's not right. And I won't tell you yours is not right. That's how we need to do things. And the fact that e cigarettes have saved 10s of millions of lives already should just it should Just be left alone, we, we regulated this industry. I'm not all happy about how all of it went, like we did do some silly things, like, label candy, like, you know, like a lot of IP theft. I don't think that's okay. Right? Like, I don't think doing stealing other people's stuff is okay. But aside from that I have no problem with candy vapes, because they're good, the flavors are super important to get people off cigarettes, because that's one of the things that keeps people vaping is they actually enjoy vaping it, and then not cigarettes starts tasting worse and worse and worse, and they just stopped smoking, it's one of the most important things and if they don't, it's like eating food. If you ate steak, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, every single steak is fantastic. It's one of my favorite meals. But if I ate it every single day, for breakfast, lunch dinner for 10 months, I would probably be sick of it and never want to eat it again. Right. So it's the same with these flavors. You can't vape the same thing over and over and over and over. Some people can but most people need to change. And if they don't have that option, they're going to go back to smoking. The people helping people quit smoking, are not able to speak to the government are not able to go to these conventions with the doctors and the pharmaceutical companies and explain how the process works. If they understood how the process works, why do you need a 20 or 30 milligram and a little pen vape, but only a three milligram and a big cloud chucking vape. If you understood why those products exist, and how they worked and what they did in the process of quitting smoking and cutting down, Nick, they would probably have left us alone a long time ago. But they don't want to hear it from us. They don't want to listen to us because they think we're in it to make money. I wish I got into this because I want to help people quit smoking. I've been in debt for almost as long as I've owned this shop. But that's not why I got into it. I got into it because I want to help people quit smoking, and it works. It is the best product out there to do it. Straight up.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Is there anything we haven't covered yet that you think we also need to talk about before we wrap up today

Unknown:

to anybody that vapes out there and wants to help the Canadian industry wants to help the Canadian industry, stop the neck cap and stuff like that, please go to www dot rights for the number four vapors.com they have a sheet there that you can fill out to send to the government. And they also will let you know who your local MPs are and stuff and you can write them and find them and let them know how much vaping is important to you. We're looking for mostly consumers, anybody that owns a shop or anything, shouldn't really do this one, you can write it on yourself. This is mostly a consumer campaign because myself as a shop and many other shops have been advocating for years. I've been doing it myself about seven years now. But they just don't want to listen to us anymore. They they're saying you guys profit off of everything. So they want to hear from the consumers why you guys need the 30 and the 40, and maybe even 50. There's people out there that do use the 50. And they prefer that 50 it should be their choice. It's not harming them, it's not causing any damage to them. So why does it matter what somebody uses, right? If you want to take two Tylenol over one you should be able to right? That's your choice. So if you want to use a 20 milligram or 30 milligram and Nick to get over that craving or help with your anxiety or stress, you should be able to do that too.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Now you say writes for vapors calm How do you spell in vapors?

Unknown:

VAP e Rs, there's one more website that I really like to promote as run by a nurse named Kelly Ann VA Ep world. So vape world spelt the AP It stands for vaping educate education and advocacy program, or sorry, vaping advocacy and education program. So it's www vpwrld.com. So she has a bunch of like, medically backed, shareable, so information that is backed by science and medical data that you can share to people about e cigarettes and stuff like that. She's been doing it for years. There's a few people on that project. They have a lot of really great information. So,

Coffee Breath Conversations:

Clint, I really want to thank you for coming on to the podcast today to talk about e cigarettes to talk about regulation over regulation. But if people want to reach you For more information, where can they find you at?

Unknown:

I'm mostly on Twitter. That's where I seem to get most of my responses from when I'm doing my advocating against other people's so it's at Darth mod d a r t h m od s You know what? That's Pretty much at twitter. That's where I do most of my social media. Other than that, I have my YouTube Actually, it's plume tube, p l u m e, ke, u b e. That's where I'm actually going to be coming out with some more videos and stuff like that very soon.

Coffee Breath Conversations:

It was great having you on the show today. You know, I learned a few new things I'm gonna have to look into. And it'd be great to have you you know, once you got your YouTube channel kind of up and running, it'd be great to do another collaboration. have you back on the show again?

Unknown:

That'd be great. Thank you very much for having me, Russell, I really appreciate this opportunity. There's just so much information. We could literally sit here for hours and go over it. I really, really appreciate this opportunity. getting proper context, I was important, and I probably didn't get out half of what I wanted to get out. But this was fantastic. So thank you so much.